Rick (00:04): It takes a bit of a blend of art and science to get baking just right and having extra eyes, ears, and hands can make a big difference along the way. That's where A. B. Maury North America comes into play. We are the team behind industrial and artists and bakers that help optimize success. We'll discuss more on this episode of The Oven Light. So let's get going. Flip the switch. All right, welcome. We are back to the oven light. The switch is on and I tell you what, we've got a great show for our listeners out there today. We've got the long and short of it. We've got a long tenured A. B. Myry North America employee and somebody who's only been here a year, but brings a whole different eye to the baking business. And so we're excited. We've got Paul Bright, who is our bake lab and innovation manager.

Rick (00:55): Been with the company almost 30 years. I can't believe child labor was allowed back then for him to be here. And then Kenyatta Holmes, who is our new product manager. So let's jump into it. Welcome to both of you.

Paul (01:07): Thank you. It's great to be here.

Rick (01:08): Thank you. So today's show, we're going to talk about a topic that is really interesting. A lot of people know that AB Maury North America is about Fleischman's yeast, right? That's where we've got a lot of our history going back to the 1800s. But we're going to talk about the other kind of leavening device. It's chemical leavening, things like baking powders and baking sodas. And I don't know much about it. So that's why we're calling on the two experts here to join us. So Kenyatta, let's start with you. I'm going to give a little bit of background. So our listeners know a little bit more on you. I mentioned a year with the company, three years at Treehouse Foods, working in business development, three years at Purina. I think you got to love pets in there somewhere. Worked with an agency shopper marketing for, I guess I can say at Petco, a couple years with Save A Lot Grocery, working on the international business.

Rick (01:56): And then you went to UMSL, got a great bachelor degree, but then also Webster. You've got a couple masters in management and communications management. There's a lot of management going on there. So Kenyata, tell me about your path and what was intriguing about getting here.

Kenyatta (02:10): Well, someone's been on my LinkedIn page.

Rick (02:13): I raised my hand. I raised my

Kenyatta (02:14): Hand. The path to here, I'd say the recruiter that you all had at the time reached out to me on LinkedIn. And we had a conversation and she just told me how great the company was, the people, it's small. I would say she sold me on the culture that is Amy Morri before we even really dived into the job and everything. She did start into that to say, "Do you know Fleishman Teast?" So I was like, "Yeah, my mom, she's from Tupelo, Mississippi." I mean-

Rick (02:49): It's in the pantry, right?

Kenyatta (02:50): All the time. As a matter of fact, during COVID, she asked me to pick her up some yeast. I picked her up some. It wasn't Fleischman's and she kind of slid it back across the table. She said, "What is that? " She wouldn't even open it. So I mean, it has been a staple in my house for as long as I can remember.

Rick (03:08): Well, it's crazy to think Fleischman's yeast and actually yeast sales were up 600% right at the beginning of the pandemic. So we're talking April of 2020. Boy, what a difference two years makes. So let's meet our other guests, Paul Bright. So Paul, I mentioned three decades in the industry, but here's the thing. It's not just him. He's got a brother. His dad, Hugh, was an instructor at AIB. That's the American Institute of Baking focused on, I believe, cookies and crackers. That's

Paul (03:35): Correct.

Rick (03:36): But he comes from the premier baking school, the bakery science program in the USK State, Kansas State University, the Wildcats, right? That's right. Go wildcats. So Polly. Tell us a little bit about your path. You're kind of an international man of mystery, really.

Paul (03:50): That's right. When you're getting out of high school, you're kind of trying to figure out what life is going to be like. And I've always enjoyed sciences and really wanted to be a geologist. I had a passion for rocks. How about that? But I was able to, with a father who's been in the baking industry for a long time, started a program of cooking and cracker research at American Institute of Baking. He asked me to come help him. And my first job helping him in the bakery lab was cleaning a hundred foot stainless steel oven, tunnel oven for my entire summer. So that was my first experience with it. But just being around the institute and seeing what they were doing and learning a little bit more about what different things that we can do in the baking industry from a research standpoint, from a development, from an education standpoint, and then finding out that Kansas State had a bakery science program.

Paul (04:41): I changed my mind. It's like I really enjoy the fact of there's a science and then there's also an art. And they go together. And when I say science, we've got biological, we got chemical reactions, but the art is the look of the dough, the smell of the dough, the feel of the dough or how it's baking. And you put those two things together and it's really a great industry to learn something every day.

Rick (05:05): So for those listening out there, mention a couple items, crackers and cookies. They don't use yeast. They use chemical leaveners. So we got the right two folks here going to help us going. So let's get into it. We're going to have a little fun here with a couple rapid fire questions. All right Kenyatta, are you ready?

Kenyatta (05:19): I guess.

Rick (05:20): Okay. Here we go. You walk into a bakery. What's the one thing you buy every time?

Kenyatta (05:25): So that's a hard one for me because I don't really eat bread.

Paul (05:29): We're going

Rick (05:29): To cut that one.

Kenyatta (05:31): Well, listen, I'm not done. So prior to coming here, I didn't understand what all went into bread. And so having my first conversation with Paul, he helped me look at different things in bread now. So like now when I go to the bakery, grocery, all different things like that, I'm looking at different things. I used to just pick, I was like, "Oh, that one looks nice." Well, now I'm looking at the crust and I'm looking at the crumble and I'm looking at all these other things. And I tell people all the time and I'm like, "Baking is a science." It's not just, "Oh, I'm going to throw something in the oven." Look at the box. He puts his soul into these recipes into everything that we do from Kim Lovening. So now going into a bakery, I have learned a love for biscuits.

Rick (06:17): Okay. And you don't mean the British biscuits. You mean like good southern fluffy?

Kenyatta (06:21): The can. And my mom, she used to make biscuits from scratch with baking soda all the time. And I just never, I was like, "I don't want any." Now I'm like, "Are you making biscuits today?" And I never understood she would make the dough, sit them on the stove, but now I understand why the heat and just, I'm telling

Rick (06:41): You- The whole proofing process.

Kenyatta (06:42): It's just a whole new way of just looking at baking.

Rick (06:46): Loved your passion for your newfound interest in bread and baking. Favorite book?

Kenyatta (06:52): My favorite book, The Game of Life and How to Play It.

Rick (06:56): Okay.

Kenyatta (06:56): It's a very small and short book. I even give it to my sons, my nephews. I mean, a super thin book. You could read it really in a day if you wanted to, but it had so many life lessons. And someone who was like my big sister, she gave it to me when I was like 20 and she just told me, she's like, "You need to read this. " Because this is when I had multiple majors. I didn't know really what I wanted to do in life. And she just kept telling me, "You need to read the book." I had about a year and I was like, "I'm not reading that book." I read the book and I continuously read it every now and then just because it made such an impact on my life.

Rick (07:32): Awesome. Third one, what's your favorite pastime? What do you do on weekends?

Kenyatta (07:36): So because I'm a mom, I'm a speed napper. I love to nap.

Rick (07:42): Okay. So what's the idea? Let's talk about this, Paul. I'm going to pull you in on this one too. What's the ideal length of a nap for you?

Kenyatta (07:49): For me, with the children that I saw, I have eight and a 15-year-old. If I can get 45 minutes in without somebody asking for a snack, I feel like I've done well.

Rick (07:58): Paul, what's your ideal nap time?

Paul (07:59): I'll be happy with 20. She's like, just give me 20.

Rick (08:01): That's like my wife. She likes the short naps. Give me an hour and a half and I'm pretty

Kenyatta (08:05): Happy. Yeah. Pre- COVID, my pastime, we like hiking. So we found that there are so many just parks in Missouri.

Rick (08:12): That's great. All right, Paul, we're going to come back to you. Rapid fire questions. Okay. You walk into a donut shop. What is the donut that you're going to pick up?

Paul (08:20): This is easy. Old-fashioned glazed.

Rick (08:22): Love it. Dead easy. Man, after my own heart too, I'm telling you what, you can't go wrong with the old fashioned. No. And we've got a pretty good recipe for one. Under the indulge brand. All right. We mentioned Book with Kenyata. How about your favorite film?

Paul (08:34): Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's silly. Yeah. It's silly as fun these

Rick (08:38): Days. That's okay.

Paul (08:39): And gotten an English background, so I can relate to those.

Rick (08:42): Okay. And then you know what? You mentioned the English background. You spent some of your formative years, teenage years in the UK. Let's talk about your passion for football. And we're talking the Ted Lasso version, not American football.

Paul (08:55): Exactly right. Well, hey, I grew up in the great Northwest of England. So right between Liverpool and Manchester, and I was sucked into the red Manchester side. So I'm a Manchester United fan.

Rick (09:05): Okay. Boy, how the accent changed there, right? It did. It came

Kenyatta (09:08): Right out.

Paul (09:08): I've been to Old Trafford, had season tickets at Old Travert for a few years, and that's the good old days when it was all standing only. And you're a young kid getting swarmed under.

Rick (09:17): You're kind of like the bobber and the water, you're kind of uploading. That's exactly right.

Paul (09:20): And the hooliganism at the time, that was always fun. All

Rick (09:23): Right, so let's move on here. We're going to talk a little bit about the chemical leavening segment. We've got a leadership position in that part of the business, but Paul, why is this chemical leavening, baking powder, baking soda things so magical? Because if you don't use it, what do you get?

Paul (09:35): The thing about baking powder is that it can be so different in applications. I mean, you look at the ingredients and a lot of them look like the ingredients are the same, but the raw materials are different going into the baking powders and it can change the way your product bakes if you're making tortillas or if you're making cakes or donuts even. If you don't have the right type of chemical leavener with the right sigulence, you may not get the end baked product that you're looking for. When you're making biscuits at home, if it's the wrong kind of baking powder, you may get flat biscuits. Or if you use sodium bicarbonate by itself, you could get a very yellow biscuit that tastes very kind of soapy, right? It's magical because we can really change ingredients on a small scale to do different things for different products.

Rick (10:22): Well, then talk about, people are looking at labels more now than ever. And so you've got some aluminum, you've got some sodium. People are trying to get rid of certain things or use alternatives just based on their dietary wishes, nutritional guidelines and such. So how do you handle that when you're looking at aluminum, sodium on the labels? How do you manage the difference and still get that end product the same?

Paul (10:44): Right. So we have to use all our tools. First of all, it's our knowledge. And in our laboratory here in St. Louis, we have a really great setup to evaluate baking powders and how they perform and how differently they perform, not only from a chemical standpoint, but also from an end baked standpoint. So if we want to go aluminum free, we can look at different raw materials, bring them in and kind of work them through, look at different gassing rates and take a look at them on how they perform in tortillas and cakes to make sure that we've got a totally different raw material, but do they perform similar to what we expect them? So we can go aluminum free. Then we can also go low sodium. So we can find different solutions, basically do the same thing with either maybe a 50% reduction in sodium or we could go 100%.

Paul (11:29): Depending on what our customers are looking for and what they're looking from a health claim. But our job at AB Mari is to look for those raw materials that fit what our customers need and ensure that then they have a product that also works for what they need.

Rick (11:45): Got it. So Paul and his team really look at the formulation level, getting really down to that product level. Kenyata, on the other hand, you've got kind of the product management ownership here for the chemical levening category and some other pieces of the business. So you've got to look at kind of a higher level. How do you see this whole category as it is? We've got bakerize and it's certainly a product that we're touting, but how important is it to look at the bigger picture?

Kenyatta (12:09): I think it's really important. So from my perspective, looking at chemical levening, I do lean quite a bit on Paul because learning the different applications and knowing that we don't need to just come up with particular products, we need to come up with particular solutions. And that's one thing that I like when talking with him and the innovation team, we don't just say, we need a product to have a product. We need to make sure that this product that we're innovating in is going to be a solution for the end user.

Rick (12:41): It's got a reason for being, right? Right.

Kenyatta (12:43): I have come to Paul many times like, "Oh, we should do this and that. " And he really challenges me like, "What do we need it for? " What is the end user? What are they trying to get

Rick (12:53): To- What's it solving?

Kenyatta (12:53): I've now known to come to him to say, "They want this. How can we get to that? " Because sometimes it is doing some different things. And he was like, "Oh, well, he starts to use all the scientific words that I don't necessarily know. " Me either. Just the way that he thinks about it. So instead of coming and say, "We need aluminum free, customer wants to do X, how can we get them to X?" It's just a different way of thinking about it because I think that being a product manager in previous companies, it was, we got to shoot ahead of everybody and innovate the next thing before they need it. Whereas this way, it's like we're doing it the reverse way. It's, okay, tell me what they're looking for and I can tell you how to get there.

Rick (13:36): Got it. Okay. So that kind of leads into the trend area. So what are some big halos that you're looking at, whether it's chemical levening or just other products in general that you think are important for today's consumers that are for you, cleaner labels, all that sort of stuff. Are there some that stick in your mind or you're like, "These are kind of close to my heart that I think are really important for us."

Kenyatta (13:59): He's talked a lot about phosphate-free. He's made me use Google quite a bit just to make sure that I know what he's talking about because I don't think that chemical leveling, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's just not your typical like, "Oh, I need a gluten-free. Oh, I need this, " because most of those properties are already there. So it's a little bit more of thinking outside of the box or chemical level versus some of the other bacon ingredients.

Paul (14:22): I agree with that. Phosphates have been, let's say, used in the industry as a standard for many, many decades. And to try and move away from phosphates, which is a known commodity, what is that next generation? If we're just looking for different acids that are not phosphate based, and that's exactly right. It's like we need to find that next ingredient, which is not the easiest thing to do.

Rick (14:43): See, when I hear of phosphate, I think of the old ice cream soda shop, right? Weren't they phosphates or what they called them? I mean, you guys are in a whole different world than your average person on the street.

Kenyatta (14:53): Each year, every company goes, "Let's figure out the plan." And I had, I think it was like a hour conversation with Paul and just different things that I know as trends over here, they don't apply to Kimlev. And so when he started saying certain things, I was like, "Okay, I get it. " And it made the wheels turn because it was like, okay, so this is different outside of the box in a sense from anything typical that would be the quote unquote trends. So it makes you think a little bit more about what's actually in the ingredients and then what they do. So what might work for cookies and crackers might not work for cakes.

Rick (15:29): A solution is not a solution, not a solution, right?

Kenyatta (15:32): So I think it's more of not necessarily following the quote unquote trends for chemical levening, but taking it to the next level of application, like what could we do next to make a more rich chocolate cake or just different things like that. Because he also told me that depending on what you put in there, it could taste a little bit more chocolatey. Well,

Rick (15:52): There's nothing wrong with that in my eyes. I like chocolate. I just

Paul (15:55): Remembers the good things.

Rick (15:56): Wow.

Paul (15:57): That's good. That's good. I'll take that.

Rick (15:59): Wow. So we talk a lot in our business about who's behind you matters. And I can tell you what, just listening to the two of you, you have a lot of discussions behind the scenes, right? You guys are big reasons why our customers are successful in what they end up doing. So part of that is the whole baking hub experience here in St. Louis, Paul. So let's turn our hat and attention to that. So tell me a little bit about what people will get when they come to St. Louis. I mean, you guys are in there every day baking and testing and formulating.

Paul (16:28): Absolutely. Well, the baking hub, let me tell you, I've been around for a while and this is the Taj Mahal of laboratories that I've been involved with. And when we designed the laboratory, it was really designed with customers in mind and what our customers will need. So it really is about applications. And from a laboratory standpoint, what can we do to support our customers in different applications? If it's donuts, if it's tortillas, if it's pizza, if it's breads, you name it. So it's about having customers come in and basically getting them out of their ... They've got their problems when they're at their location, being able to focus on what they want to do as far as development. So if they have some wants on development, they can come into our laboratory in the baking hub and we can then work one-on-one and understand their process, their application, and their end product characteristics that they're looking for.

Paul (17:22): So in a very short period of time, we can produce quite a bit of work where we can advance a project and understand so we can put lots of heads together, lots of minds and lots of ideas and knock those out to achieve whatever that customer goal ends up being.

Rick (17:37): We have had a major customer come in before and said they got more out of two or three days spending time in the baking hub in St. Louis than they would have two or three months back home because they got away from the fray. All the things you get inundated with requests and commitments and meetings when you're back in your corporate office, but when you can get away for a couple days, you can formulate, you can judge and scale and do all those sortings, come back and adjust. So the baking hub has been a good piece there. Kenya, we're going to turn our attention back to you now. Product management is something that AB Maori's done for a long time, but we've really formalized it here in the last few years. We've got a specific group, we've got a small, nimble team, but a very powerful team with Kyle Christensen, who you heard from last, the oven light he was on is our VP of product management.

Rick (18:21): And then we also have Nicole Reese, who is our product director. And now you've come aboard. We've got a pretty powerful one, two, three punch now. So how do you feel about this whole group product direction? That's what your history. If I look back on your resume, you did that a lot within the pet space. You also did business development within Treehouse Foods, and certainly the product list is long. Why is it important, this whole product development, product management area?

Kenyatta (18:46): Product management is kind of, I think just now getting its shine, companies are now understanding that they need that because to have someone over the product from ideation to shelf is important.

Rick (19:00): The stage gate process and all that, right?

Kenyatta (19:03): And really, I mean, figuring out like, should we even make it? Because I mean, Paul and I have those conversations as well because you could have a great idea, but no business case. Historically, most companies are very reactive to what their customers need. "Oh, I want it. Let me make it. "But now it goes through that second kind of check. Does it make business sense? Because I think that that's where companies are becoming more nimble. They stop it there if it doesn't. But if it does, okay, let's continue on with the process. And that is where that product manager comes in because with our innovation team or any company's innovation team, we want you to innovate. We don't want you to have to worry to see, does it make sense? Are we spending the right time? Are we doing this in the right area? No, no, no.

Kenyatta (19:49): That's for us to figure out for you. We need you in there baking waffles and making those great tortillas that you do. So it changes the dynamic of the company because people have set responsibilities and own certain things. So you stay in your lane. You see, I don't go over in his lane. I'm learning from his lane. But I source him, "Hey, we have this situation." And sometimes he even says, "That's great and all, but this isn't what you need to do to get to the end point."

Rick (20:17): Yeah. It's a reminder for our listeners out there, you can send an email to us at theovenlight@abaury.com. If you've got a good question that you want to get to Kenyatta or you want to get to Paul, we'll be happy to answer those in future episodes. Also, looking ahead, the next episodes four and five are going to focus on supply chain and procurement, right? Those are two key areas right now, especially the world climate, not being able to get chips for cars, not being able to get X, Y, and Z at the grocery store. So we'll talk to a couple of our experts from AB Maori on that one. And then we're talking tax day. We're going to bring in Eric Robin, who is our legal counsel in Chicago, but he surprisingly has also served as our mascot, is John Doe. He's going to be an interesting guy that I think you'll be curious to listen to.

Rick (21:03): Any parting shots? Kenyatta, let's first with you. Anything that's heavy on the heart that you're like, "Boy, I want to tell the listeners what this is all about. "

Kenyatta (21:11): My last one will probably be to Pauly. If there's any company that has any thoughts of tortillas, because I'll be honest, I have never looked at tortillas the way that I do now from working here. I mean, just it's so different and the taste is very different. I don't really care for certain tortillas. Now, if I'm going to go to a restaurant, I'm like, "That doesn't taste like the one that ...

Rick (21:36): " Okay. Well, here, this is time for another rapid fire, right? You're eating tacos. It's taco night, corner flour.

Kenyatta (21:42): Ooh, probably flour.

Rick (21:45): Brunchier soft.

Kenyatta (21:47): I did not eat soft tacos before I came here. It is his fault. Wow.

Rick (21:51): Well, then your life has been proved a lot, right?

Kenyatta (21:53): I've always been crunchy. There's always been meat. And now that I work here and I got to taste some tortillas, my husband even said, he was like, "You want soft tacos?" And I was like, "Listen, don't sleep on soft tacos."

Rick (22:08): Well, we will have Oscar, who is our tortilla expert. We'll have him on a future show, but he has kicked out some really interesting flavors. Paul, I'm sure you- Pineapple. Dabbled. So pineapple is one of those. I tell you what, it goes great with fish, a little lettuce or cabbage on top. Boom. There you go. Paul, interesting flavor or style that you like in the tortilla range?

Paul (22:27): Hey, I'm a traditionalist. I love corn tortillas.

Rick (22:29): Oh,

Paul (22:30): That's

Rick (22:30): What I'm talking

Paul (22:30): About. It's just warm corn tortillas. I'm in heaven, right? So I have to make two. I'm a big corn tortilla and the other half of my family are flour tortillas. So if we're doing something, then we have to have both.

Rick (22:42): A family split.

Paul (22:43): So we are split. Our house divided. We are divided. Yep.

Rick (22:46): But hey, everybody agrees on tacos. We can all get that vote there. Cool. Well, hey, I appreciate both of you being on the show. The oven light is better for it. And hopefully our listeners out there have learned a little bit more about chemical levening, some of the products that goes in. And you've learned about our two experts today, Kenyata and Paul. So thank you so much for joining us. And for now, The Oven Light, the switch is off. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Oven Light. Until next time when we discuss more about the wonderful world of baking technology, trends and more, the switch is officially off. Goodbye for now. See you next time.