Rick (00:04): It takes a bit of a blend of art and science to get baking just right, and having extra eyes, ears, and hands can make a big difference along the way. That's where AB Maury North America comes into play. We are the team behind industrial and artists and bakers that help optimize success. We'll discuss more on this episode of The Oven Light. So let's get going. Flip the switch. Welcome everybody. Back to The Oven Light. The switch is on. Let's get after it. It's episode number eight today, and it is titled Who Wants to Clean Up Mold. Well, I'll raise my hand on that, but I'm not the smart one in the group. I brought in a couple experts here. You've heard from them in the past. You've got Paul Bright from our baking technology team, and you also have our VP of product, Kyle Christensen.

Rick (00:59): Paul, welcome aboard.

Paul (01:01): Thank you. It's great to be here again.

Rick (01:03): Kyle, welcome back, buddy.

Kyle (01:04): Thanks, Rick. Happy to be here. Hope we can get some good discussion today and excited to join the Oven Light.

Rick (01:10): Awesome. It's always great to have you guys back on the show. Let's start. We're going to start a little lighter. We have these rapid fire questions. So Paul, coming to you, you're kind of an international band of mystery, right? You're born outside of the US, spent a lot of time in the UK. What's your favorite city, whether in the US or internationally?

Paul (01:28): Right. Good question. I would say Kona on the big island of Hawaii and why? It incorporates my two favorite things. Being in Hawaii and coffee, really good coffee. So you put those two things together and that's a great place to be.

Rick (01:43): I love that. I'll add a little sentiment to that too. We do make years for things outside of the baking industry, and there is some beer in Kona as well, right?

Paul (01:51): There is. I may have been to Kona Brewing one or two times.

Rick (01:56): That's great. All right, Kyle, we're coming to you. Here's your rapid fire question. It's summer now. Technically, it's hot. Favorite pastime during the summer?

Kyle (02:06): Especially now that we've moved to Utah, I am really enjoying getting out and doing some hiking. Lots of great hiking trails, both if we go down to Southern Utah in the Red Rock area, but definitely up in Northern Utah and the hills and the mountains. Really enjoying getting out to hike. And you can stay a little cooler the higher elevation you get. So that's my new-ish summer pastime.

Rick (02:26): Well, you got to give me a little more than that. Do you have a favorite trail or is it Zion? What is it that you and Jennifer like to sneak off to and trek?

Kyle (02:33): Well, the one that's right near our house that I've really been enjoying is there's two gorgeous just right there in the Wasatch Mountain front, right near our house. And so you can go up the Grotto Canyon, gain about 2,000 feet elevation in a couple miles. And then you go sideways along the mountain front for about a mile and come back down. Category Canyon. That's what locals call it. And to come back down home. So it's about an eight mile loop and it's pretty good for me to get a good workout in because I'm not jogging or running. So really been enjoying that.

Rick (03:00): Paul, one last question for you. Favorite baking memory as a child. Was there something that somebody made in your family an aunt or an uncle or a grandmother or something that just hit you, like there's the smell of cookies coming home from school or what? What was it?

Paul (03:16): Well, I'm going to have to say it was my first baking experience. And I was in England at the time and we were making English current scones in one of our home ed classes and they turned out awesome. And I thought, "Hey, this baking thing, that's pretty fun and you get to enjoy some good eats at the end." So that's one of my first experiences hands on and it was great.

Rick (03:37): That's awesome. And there's a little tease in there too. We didn't script this, but he's talking about scones. And if you know us at AB Maori, we like to have fun at IBIE, which is the big baking exhibition happens only every three years and this time it's September 18th to the 21st in Las Vegas. We'll have some scones in our booth. Let your minds wander, but we're going to have fun. Paul, I think you will love what we're offering at IBIE. Okay, guys, let's jump into it. So the topic today, you guys are experts in this area. We're talking about mold inhibition. There are traditional solutions that have been out for decades, things like calcium propeonate, but then along came enzymes. And there's other things that people feel good about on labels like vinegar, but let's dive into it a little bit. So let's ask the baker.

Rick (04:20): So Paul, why is mold inhibition important for bakers like you and ones that are industrial or artisan based?

Paul (04:27): Sure. I can think of probably three main topics to answer this and maybe not in any order, but I think health and safety is one of the first ones where obviously we want to sell a consumable product without any health related issues, if it's mold or bacteria growth. And then secondly, we want to have an improved consumer experience. So if a consumer buys one of our customer's baked products, we want to make sure that they can enjoy that product over whatever that shelf life may be. They're going to enjoy it from day one to whenever the shelf life expires. And then lastly, and this is a big one, is reduction in waste. The more that we can enhance shelf life, the less product that will go into the trash at the end of the day. So if we're looking at the economics of things, we certainly don't want to throw product away.

Paul (05:16): And so those are three kind of main areas of mold inhibition as it relates to the baking industry. Well,

Rick (05:21): I think everybody would feel good about that. You said health and safety, you had a better experience for the baker and then reduce waste. At AB Maori globally and also here in North America, we are focused on ESG. That's the whole environment and social and governance pieces. But how do we get smarter about reducing our waste, having a better footprint, if you will. So those are really good points. Paul, since you're kind of the global guy too, why is the US a little bit different than maybe Europe, because it seems like we've got a different footprint. Are there some geographical challenges that maybe we have here in the States that maybe Europe doesn't face?

Paul (05:57): Yeah, definitely. So it's the size of the country and our logistic shipping channels that are really quite long versus Europe. Just as an example, if you look at the United Kingdom and then you look at the state of Texas, well, you can almost fit three Englands in the state of Texas. And so that just kind of gives you an idea of size differences from a logistics standpoint. The bakeries are shipping products further and further than ever would be probably in a lot of the European countries. So shelf life enhancements, mold inhibition, eating qualities are really at a premium when you are shipping over longer channels.

Rick (06:41): I like that anecdote there. Three UKs would fit into the size of Texas. I mean, not that Texas has a different ego. And I lived in Dallas for my first job after college for a while, but they say everything's big in Texas, so I guess that's really big. So Kyle, you are our product lead as it relates to mold inhibition. I mentioned CalPro, calcium propranate. Why does it work so well and why do bakers like using? What are the benefits?

Kyle (07:04): I would piggyback on something that Paul just said. I remember reading a study and it's already a few years old. It might be five or eight years old, but worldwide bread, just in the bread market, worldwide annually between 600 million and 650 million pounds of bread are wasted and spoiled and determined unsellable every year. So in a year like we're having this year with food shortages and ingredient shortages, everything we can do to be sustainable and to reduce waste is exactly where we want to be focused. So I agree with some of those thoughts. Moving on to Calpro then, I guess you'd say, well, Calpro, I mean, Paul's more technical than I am by far, but a propionate, whether it's a calcium propionate, a sodium propionate, these are neutral salts derive propionic acid. One of the reasons so well in baking, not only do they give you that long shelf life, but they also have reduced or very limited minimal activity against yeast.

Kyle (07:55): So they become a very good, widely used antimicrobial and yeast raised baked foods. And so that's one of the advantages that propionates have and they are very successful. Rick, those are my thoughts. Paul might have something to add there.

Paul (08:07): Yeah. I mean, that's a great point. And also cost in use. It's a very economical cost solution for antimicrobial. So the usage rate is quite low to get the shelf life. And then the cost per pound is also very economical. So if you're looking for economical solutions, calcium proponates is a go- to. And then longevity, the amount of time that calcium propanate has been used in the industry for decades. So there's a history of understanding calcium propionate and its effect in a lot of different baked products. So there's a knowledge there. There's a knowledge base on getting the most efficacy out of calcium propanate.

Rick (08:42): Yeah, you know what you know. So I love the comments about cost because we're all seeing it, we're all feeling it, whether it's at the gas pump or as of our airing here, even formula costs for baby formula. It's tough to find supplies and things like that. So Paul, let's go back to you. You're the resonant baker on the call. So what are the ideal products? I mean, let's kind of simplify it a little bit that CalPro and other mold inhibition systems work into.

Paul (09:07): Absolutely. So as Kyle mentioned quite correctly, calcium propronate really doesn't affect yeast activity. So it'll fall into that yeast-raised baked good category. So pretty much all yeast raised products, calcium proponate are effective as an antimicrobial. Also, there are a few non-yeast chemical leaven products like tortillas. And what you'll find is a lot of tortillas, flour tortillas utilize calcium proponate as well to get extended shelf life. And some of the areas where you wouldn't see calcium proponent maybe in sweet goods, in cakes and donuts and high fat, high sugar, high pH type products, you typically won't see calcium proponent used in those applications.

Rick (09:53): Depending on the rate of the application, do you ever get an off taste at all or anything like that? Or is that built into what Kyle was talking about as a neutral salt?

Paul (10:01): Very good question again. And again, calcium propane, it's been used for a long time because it doesn't affect flavor, aroma, color of the product when used appropriately to achieve the right shelf life. So again, very clean, clean flavor, clean aroma.

Rick (10:18): Outstanding. Appreciate that, Paul. So Kyle, you have an eye on as a product VP and owner of this product category for AB Maori North America. You see a little bit of the old and you see a little bit of the new. What do you think has changed over the past decade as it relates to mold inhibition systems or mold inhibitors?

Kyle (10:38): Well, I guess a couple of things have changed from my perspective. One is the size of the prize, the size of the demand, the size of the market. I mean, continually we see customers asking for more and more shelf life. Can I get three more days? Can I get a few more days? I mean, I don't know that any of us really wants to eat a 60 day donut, but these are the kind of things that people are asking for, not only in terms of softness, but also you've got to be able to prevent mold on products the longer the shelf life so that we reduce waste and we can have more economics in terms of delivery, logistics and supply chain. So I think that's a big change, especially here in North America, the number of days that consumers are seeing on their packaged goods, as well as our customers need to be able to supply effectively to the marketplace.

Kyle (11:20): And as a result of that, you just see the size of the market continuing to grow. I think globally, mold inhibition is pushing up to two and a half billion dollars, but of course, not all of that is in baked goods. Obviously mold inhibition is prevalent in meats and other food industries as well as in animal feed and animal nutrition. But here in North America, the size of the price for CalPro continues to grow, pushing up from what used to be about a hundred million dollar market to 150 million. And then you start thinking about clean label. And I guess that's the other trend. More and more consumers, as consumers in all areas continue to gain awareness, continue to demand clean label alternatives for what's going into their bodies. And then of course, understanding labels more and more. You've got clean label mold inhibition needs continuing to grow, and that leads to new technology, new innovation.

Kyle (12:08): What can we use? Clean label in the past. Again, Paul might have something to echo on this or add, but clean label in the past was vinegar, at least for baked goods. But vinegar sometimes, if you have to use a little bit more to get a few extra days, then you start to have some of those off flavors. And so innovation drives some of these clean label opportunities. And so AB Maori, of course, has clean label mold inhibition product offerings and we're working on some new things that we're really excited about making available into the market to give our customers, to give the nation's bakers those opportunities to add something that's label friendly and still have effective mold inhibition for all the characteristics and demands that we've already talked about. So I think in terms of my trends that I've seen, I've just seen the size of the market and then the movement toward clean label would be two that I would add.

Rick (12:57): So Kyle, without giving away the farm here, I know the innovation R&D team is working on some new products in this area. Anything you can tease our listeners with?

Kyle (13:06): I would tease, and I would say that BakeGuard is our brand name that you want to be looking for. And we've got something launching out in the marketplace this calendar year we're really excited about that can give that extra shelf life and still be very label friendly without any off flavors and cost and use very much in line with other clean label and quote unquote natural mold inhibitors out in the baking industry here in North America. So BakeGuard is the name to be watching for.

Rick (13:32): Appreciate that, Kyle. So Paul, we'll turn our attention back to you. So before I joined AB Maury, I was just a regular guy buying bread just like everybody else. And when I thought about having fresh products, I always, maybe I just kind of confused it, but I thought like, "Hey, a fresh product means I have no mold on it. " But there's a little bit of overlap when you talk about freshness in products and things that keep things fresher for longer or extended shelf life, if you will, and then mold inhibition. They're kind of two totally different areas, but they're important together, right?

Paul (14:04): That's a great point, Rick. And again, I don't want to give away how old I am and how long I've been in the industry, but 30 odd years ago when I started, bread shelf life was about three to five days. And basically then if it was past the three to five days, it would be going into waste. And one of the major changes that I've seen in the last 30 years is the use of food-grade enzymes and specifically anti-staling enzymes. So these enzymes that are specific for the baking industry allow the bread to basically reduce the staling properties. And therefore we can extend shelf life or organ electric eating qualities from that three to five day stale, dry piece of bread to 30 days and longer. And the consumer will never have an idea that it's 30 days old because it eats exactly like a freshly baked bread.

Paul (15:00): So in the past, it was the staling of the bread that caused it to be basically thrown away. Now we can get very extended shelf life on eating qualities and now it becomes mold that is growing. Mold is the cause of a lot of times the bread being thrown away or being discarded. So since we've got a new technology to improve the eating qualities of the bread, we now need to find ways to improve the shelf life with regards to antimicrobial properties. So that's really been the change. So we've gone from three days to 14 to 21 days to 30 plus days on shelf life since I've been in the industry. And so there's been a definite overlap between new innovation as far as enzymes and antimicrobial calcium propronates and other label-friendly type products.

Rick (15:50): All right, Paul, I'm going to really take this to a base level, but if we have some newbies listening in and really trying to understand how you're supposed to store bread, because one would think, "Hey, at a top level, if I put it in the refrigerator, there's probably a less chance I'll have mold." But that's not necessarily the optimal way, right, Paul?

Paul (16:09): Well, back in the old days, you'd be exactly right. So actually refrigerated temperatures accentuates the staling rate, but what we found now is with the new enzyme technologies, we can put breads in the refrigeration and we won't get that very stale, dry product. So there's always that option to potentially go into refrigeration, keep it longer, but if we're getting 14 to 21 days in our bread box, then I think that's also a great solution. We don't want to keep bread forever or any products forever, but either/or I think works now, especially with the new technologies.

Rick (16:42): Kyle, I'm going to go to you just from a health standpoint, right? Some people would say if you see mold on a piece of bread, you can just rip that off and you can eat the rest. How do you feel about that?

Kyle (16:52): As a consumer, that's a big turnoff to me. If it's there, it starts growing. Hopefully I'm not too wasteful, but I'm more inclined to get rid of that and go find a product that is more pleasing to the eye because I'm not in that boat where I can just want 10% and keep going. But that's just my impression as a consumer.

Rick (17:08): Give us a science answer here, Paul.

Paul (17:10): There was a study done a while ago where there was a four-story bakery and one of the testers had one slice of moldy bread and they opened it up to the atmosphere and within five minutes they could detect that mold on all four floors. So mold spores flew off the bread and within five minutes, they were able to find the mold spores throughout the bakery. So one moldy loaf or one mold can really contaminate everything that surrounds that bread. So it probably be wise to, if you start to see mold, maybe not utilize it because you can pretty much guarantee the entire loaf will have mold spores on the bread.

Rick (17:52): Let's go back to kind of a higher level. There's a lot going on in the industry. Consumers taste buds, they're changing all the time. There's a special keen eye on sustainability, clean label, specific preferences on diets. So what excites you about the industry and what are you seeing that keeps you really engaged, Kyle?

Kyle (18:10): From my perspective, it's the innovation that's exciting. I think that as demands change, our customers of AB Mallory North America are looking for both innovative products, innovative applications, but also innovative flavors and innovative ways to make existing products even more palatable or more applicable or more attractive to a larger group of consumers. So whether you've got ethnic flavors, whether you've got different applications that are brought in from around the globe, or whether you're just trying to figure out how do you make the existing products better through clean label mold inhibition, through other ESL, enzymes, through other ways. I just think the innovation in the industry is so exciting. Sometimes you think about baking industry and you think of a state, standard, not moving quickly area that wouldn't apply to innovation. But for me, it's the innovation that excites. And for me, it's the innovation that drives the future performance of our baking industry here in North America.

Kyle (19:04): So I would definitely comment on the innovation.

Rick (19:08): Great insight. Hey guys, before we close down today's episode, I just want to remind our listeners that if you've got questions for our team, whether it's Paul or Kyle or anybody else at AB Maori North America, we do have an email address. You can send us a note at theovenlight@abmawry.com and we'll respond back to you. We might even send you some swags. Stay in touch with us that way and we're happy to answer your questions and we will follow up with you. And then one other thing, just kind of looking ahead to future topics, right? We've covered a lot of ground in the first eight episodes now and we'll be focused in future issues. We'll be talking about the history of Fleischmann's, the Fleischman's East family, if you will. We'll preview IBIE. I kind of mentioned the trade show that'll be coming up in September in Las Vegas.

Rick (19:52): We'll have a special guest that'll be coming on and a very national prominent baker and chef who will join us. We'll talk about softening. And then boy, as we get towards the end of the year, I mean, what better time to talk about holiday baking? And Paul and Kyle, we might pull you back in on that and some members of your team. So before we finish up, let's get to a big finale here. Kyle, any last parting shots, anything you want to make sure our listeners know?

Kyle (20:17): Thanks, Rick. Well, first it's been a pleasure to be part of the Ovenlight. Really excited about the podcast. And then otherwise, just things that are on my mind are just that the difficulties that are happening around the globe economically are definitely impacting all citizens of every nation, trying to figure out how do they stretch their dollar a little further. And I think baking, the baking industry has a part to play in that. Everybody, whether it's bread, whether it's sweet goods, whether it's tortillas, this is where we need to focus our innovation and our time and our efforts so that we can be better stewards of the world's food supply and take care of our country and our nation and our globe in a manner that allows everyone to have equal access to food so that they can have sustainable families. That's where I'm at and I'm really excited about some of the things that we're seeing both at AB Mallory's a part of and also in the industry as a whole.

Rick (21:04): Thanks, Kyle. How about you, Mr. Bright? Any big finale? Any big thoughts you want to get off your chest?

Paul (21:10): No, I'm right there with Kyle. And I think I'm just really excited about being able to be part of the AB Mari innovation team at this time where there are some issues that we have in front of us and being able to assist our customers and their consumers to solve these issues. I think we're going to be a pretty good team and I think we can really solve a lot of these together as a group. I think we can really solve a lot of these issues and come out with some really good innovative alternatives.

Rick (21:39): Thanks a lot to both of our guests today, Kyle Christensen and also Paul Bright. A great episode talking about mold inhibition and a lot more. And for now, the switch is off. The oven light is off and we'll see you next time. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Oven Light. Until next time when we discuss more about the wonderful world of baking technology, trends and more, the switch is officially off. Goodbye for now. See you next time.