Intro/Outro (00:04): It takes a bit of a blend of art and science to get baking just right and having extra eyes, ears, and hands can make a big difference along the way. That's where AB Maori, north America comes into play. We are the team behind industrial and artisan bakers that help optimize success. We'll discuss more on this episode of the Oven light. So let's get going. Flip the switch.

Rick (00:32): Welcome back everybody to the oven light. The switch is on the oven, light is back at it. We've got a great show today. A very interesting guest celebrated multiple careers in multiple industries, multiple countries, including the Royal Air Force, a fuel distribution. Maybe there's some mid-air refueling. I don't know, we'll have to ask him. And now, distilling in Boulder, Colorado. This guy, he's the chieftain from Vapor Distillery, the makers of fine boulder spirits. Let's welcome Alistair Brogan. Alistair, great to have you on the show.

Alastair (01:04): Thanks so much, Rick. Looking forward to chatting to you.

Rick (01:08): So hey, on the oven light Alistair, we talk a little bit about everything. We talk about bread baking beverages, so we're going to get into distilled spirits, which is your forte. We'll talk music, sports, a little bit of everything in between. So let's jump into it. So how does a guy from Scotland fall in love with Colorado after some cool careers in the military and fuel industry?

Alastair (01:30): Well, that's a long story, so I'll try and cut it short. Distilling is my third career now, and the reason I live in the US is because I fell in love with an American girl. And while I actually was in the US I was in Florida, took her back to Scotland, sold my business in Scotland, unexpectedly, the fuel distribution business. And we made a decision to take our very young two boys who were born in Scotland and just pack her bags and have a go at America. I mean, that's where she was born. And I thought it's an exciting prospect of doing something different. And as you know, I've done a lot of different things and we moved to Colorado and specifically in Boulder, Colorado. And even that was let's look at a map of America and where do we want to live in the us? And we decided against the sort of cold north, the warm south, the crowded west, the hurricanes and tornadoes in the east. And we ended up deciding to come to Colorado, spent a month here, loved it, packed their bags and moved.

Rick (02:43): That's pretty awesome. So let's dive into a little bit deeper in your background. The Royal Air Force. I mean, how awesome is that? Tell me about your experience, what roles you served and maybe what kind of lessons maybe you learned that even to business or what you're doing in the distilling world.

Alastair (03:03): From a very, very young boy, I was very lucky that I knew exactly what I wanted to do. And my whole high school, middle school was all about achieving that goal. And I wanted to be a fast jet pilot in the Royal Air Force. That was my absolute goal. And everything that I did was focused on that, whether it be the exams, our exams, whether it be the subjects I took, whether it be the experiences I had. And so I focused in that, came out of school, signed up in the Air Force, immediately they released me to do a degree. So I did a degree for three years, an undergraduate degree while I was flying in the Air Force. And then went to basic training, went through officer training and then basic training. And unfortunately two years into my training, I perforated my eardrums medically downgraded, therefore I lost my flying category and I couldn't continue, which was a real heartbreaker for me. It was all I wanted to do. But the good thing was with every disappointment, there's something else around the corner. And I decided to stay in the Air Force and I stayed in for another six years really specializing in combat survival, interrogation, sport recreation for the camps that I was assigned to. So I did that for a further six years before, at the age of 27, made the decision that I wanted to come out and start a second career, do something completely different.

Rick (04:43): Well, let me ask you this too. I think they're working on Top Gun three and I have to ask the question because everybody knows Goose and Maverick, you had to have a cool call sign, didn't you?

Alastair (04:52): No, no. Cool call signs. You're not allowed them in the Royal Air Force. You're not allowed Cool call signs. Absolutely. It didn't make my mind up becoming a pilot when I watched Top Gun, but I loved that movie, but I was sorely disappointed with the second one. It just didn't have, that didn't resonate with me anymore. But the first one was,

Rick (05:14): Well that's ironic because I've got Tom Cruise on the show with us today and he's got a few things. No, I'm just kidding. He's not here. But alright, maybe this will spur that one, but alright, so let's jump over to fuel distribution. How did you make that switch from the Air Force now to this? And this one's really intimately linked as you get into distilled spirits because ethanol consumer alcohol, they're kind of like kissing cousins, right?

Alastair (05:37): Yeah, absolutely. So when I came out of the Air Force, I never actually put a great deal of thought into what I was going to do. So I traveled for a year, I bought a round of world ticket and traveled for a year through mainly a Asia, the US as well, and Africa, and really trying to think what I wanted to do. And so I joined the fuel distribution business in Scotland. That really, I mean the easiest way to explain it is we pick up the fuel from the refineries and then distribute it for heating oil, et cetera to domestic householders and also industry. So that was something which was a family business and something which I never really wanted to go into, but I eventually went on. I ended up doing that for 15 years and it was interesting. It was business. It was building the business the way that me and three others could do. So yeah, it was an interesting 15 years.

Rick (06:37): Wow. Okay. We're going to dial it down a little bit here. We have kind of a fun section where we throw some rapid questions at you. We should usually call it the hot pen. We may call it the shot glass or the hot still or something like that. But we're going to just throw a few real quickly. Here we go. First one favorite distilled spirit and the situation to drink it.

Alastair (06:57): I think like all whiskeys friends, location, that's really what you want to drink whiskey with because whiskeys invoke a time and place for most of us whiskeys. I don't drink with some people, I'll drink with others. So yeah, I think with friends.

Rick (07:14): Alright, do you go neat or is there ice in there?

Alastair (07:17): A thick piece of ice? I like my whiskey a little cooler, so a thick piece of ice that will slowly, slowly melt, but nothing that will melt too quickly.

Rick (07:25): Alright, so we do have a little bit of roots in the use business for baking. So what's your favorite baked good?

Alastair (07:31): Oh, it's got to be, and I don't know whether you'll know what this is a scotch pie and a scotch pie is a double baked a pie with mutton or sheep meat inside. So that's my favorite, but they don't have that in the us.

Rick (07:46): That's a bummer. It reminds me of a Seinfeld quote from one of the shows they were eating a salad and it's like, boy Sutton, this salad's got nothing on this mutton. So I got to share that one, if you remember that episode, but you don't hear that word thrown around much. Alright, and the third one, you're close enough to the iconic music venue, red Rocks. Have you been, and if so, maybe what's your favorite event you've been to there?

Alastair (08:08): I have many. A few years ago before Covid, I went to see Brit Floyd, which is a tribute band to Pink Floyd. And I think yes, they were fantastic, but more so the location atmosphere for the people that have been there is just absolutely spectacular.

Rick (08:26): Yeah, it's a brilliant place. Okay, so before we jump into our next little segment, I got to give a little bit of plug. If you've got a question for Alistair Brogan, he's the chieftain from Vapor Distillery in Boulder, Colorado. You can send us an email at the oven light@abmurray.com and we'll get you an answer back, maybe send you some swag. So again, the oven light@abmaori.com if you want to send something to the mailbag. Next up, I've got a little bit of a surprise guest for you, Alistair, you know him very well. If he had a call sign, I'd probably call him Stud Monkey, but he also heads up AB biotech North America. It's Mr. Greg Strauss who's been on the show before. Greg Alistair.

Gregg (09:05): Hey, good afternoon Alistair. Good to hear your voice again, my friend.

Alastair (09:09): Hi Greg, how are you doing?

Gregg (09:11): Outstanding.

Rick (09:12): So you guys have a long history because from what I understand, and now I'll let you guys clarify. The first ever customer for AB biotech North American, really for AB biotech because it started here in North America in St. Louis. The first customer was you. You guys talked and I've been telling Greg for about, I don't know, seven years now, there's an invoice that's been on his wall tacked on his wall, and I'm like, you better submit that for payment. No, I'm kidding. But he's very proud of that. So I wanted to make sure to tie you guys together, Greg, if you want to talk about how the relationship started.

Gregg (09:45): Hey, anyway, great to reconnect with you again, Alistair. Yeah, I tell everybody this is how it all starts and it is that invoice is prominently displayed on my wall. It was actually nine years ago this past Friday, you became our first AB biotech North American customer. Prior to that it was all bakery focused, but I will tell you, so from my perspective, I had just kind of stepped out of the bakery role and was looking for customers and end use markets to get involved with working with the different teams to explore what yeast we could sell into what markets. And in the process of all that, a phone call came through our customer service group and it was you. So the head of customer service walked in my office and said, Hey, there's this Scotsman on the phone, I think he wants to buy some yeast, do you want to talk to him? And that's how it all began. It was really, really neat deal. But no, we've advanced quite a bit and want to thank you again for your business and continued partnership,

Alastair (10:45): Greg. Absolutely. I mean, I was absolutely flabbergasted when I picked up the phone, looked up the, because I knew I went and I looked up the online for the phone number and a lovely lady picked the phone up and she said, I've heard people talk about distillers yeast and something we might do, and I think that's when she came through to speak to you. But it was the ultimate customer service call because I got within, I don't know, well you're saying nine years coming up. Our oldest single malt whiskey here is just over eight years. So that almost coincides after I ordered it to us a little bit to get up and running and then we started putting whiskey down probably about nine months after that.

Rick (11:29): Yeah, so I say the two groups here are kind of intimately linked in terms of their origins and now growing up to some wonderful businesses. So let's talk about Vapor a little bit and what you have going on there after eight plus years of all the things you've made, what are you most proud of and what gets you really excited?

Alastair (11:51): Well, coming out from a fuel distribution background, just going to take a step back. Coming out of the distribution background, I was in Scotland, we're surrounded by single mal whiskey distilleries and I think I visited every single one and I really wanted to make the very best single malt whiskey coming over to the US and I wanted to have the right ingredients at the very, very start still that I brought over that we can talk about later, the spectacular water here at the best multi barley I could get, but also the best start at that point to then create something. And what I'm most proud of is our flagship American single malt whiskey, our flagship single malt whiskey, a hundred percent multi barley new. And that's the biggest difference between single malt whiskey here in the US and single malt whiskey in the rest of the world. And a lot of people don't know that it goes into New York Barrel here in the us whereas scotch or single malt whiskey from Germany, Sweden, Denmark, that all goes into second fill normally X bourbon barrels. So here we get a distinctly different flavor of whiskey, distinctly different flavor of single malt, and it is not scotch, it is not your traditional single malt here in the us it's distinctly American single

Rick (13:16): Malt. So you kind of teased it a little bit. We're going to talk about this specialty for size still. So this is a still that's right, is very Scottish and you brought one over and moved it to the us. Why is that significant? What's the big deal about that?

Alastair (13:32): The big deal is the fact that multi barley, there's more depth and complexity, multi barley. So using traditional column stills, which makes an incredibly clean spirit, very, very quickly a continuous still, we wanted a pot still. A pot still is a batch system, so having more contact for that multi barley with the water that's present during distillation allows more time for those deep flavors of tea barley to maturate into the water. So what we end up with is just think of if you leave a tea bag in a cup of tea for a bit longer, you're going to get more tea out of it. And it's exactly the same with multi barley. You're getting more depth complexity with it. So it was vital that it was going to be a pot still. The second part of that is that we were able to design the still to give a heavy whiskey and a heavier whiskey then has a better reaction with new oak barrels because the lighter the whiskey is like say an Irish whiskey, you put that into New York barrels and perhaps that New York is going to overtake the whiskey a little quicker than heavy whiskey.

Alastair (14:49): So that was the second criteria we needed a still designed and who better to go to for sites? I mean for sites literally are the number one in the world for pot stills. In fact, funny story was when I ordered my still, it was a three year waiting list and the next day announced in the paper that Macallan had ordered, I can't remember how many, it was 16 stills. And I phoned up Richard Forsyth, who's the third generation of Forsyths in Roth, and I said, Hey Richard, are you going to bump me now? Because Macallan has come in. And he goes, no, no, no. He said, you are still, even though though it's the biggest in Colorado, it's so small that I can make it in between times really, even though it's a thousand gallons still, it was one of the smaller ones he made compared to the Scottish whiskey industry.

Rick (15:45): Well, you got to love the generational length they have even on the art of making stills too, right? Yeah,

Alastair (15:51): I mean that's third generation. They're still making stills for company like Macau and it's a beautiful piece of craftsmanship to give that heavy whiskey to really compete in that new oak boroughs.

Rick (16:03): Well, speaking of craftsmanship, tell us a little bit about your place, your location there, because I know you do tours, people can order distilled spirits, boulder spirits and pick them up. You do tastings and all that kind of good stuff, right?

Alastair (16:18): Yeah, I mean we are right in Boulder in Colorado. It's about 25 half an hour north of Denver and a lot of distilleries. We do fantastic distillery tours, we do tastings here. We do free samples flights. You can buy our products online through our Shopify site. And we really are a whiskey community here. We get a lot of regular people who want to taste and sample our new expressions that maybe only come out at the distillery. So yeah, we're like a lot of the other smaller craft distilleries. In fact, we're about to have a tour here on next Sunday because the American Craft Distillery Association are coming to town too for their annual conference. So on their tour, they're coming up here. I don't know how many of them, 40, 50 of them coming up to be toured around. So we're waiting for some of the hard questions from the very knowledgeable craft distillers from around the us.

Rick (17:15): Well then we also have what the A DI show later this year, the American Distilling Institute will be in Baltimore. So we're excited to see you there, but we're talking about history and those sorts of things. Certainly our paths have been together here for the last eight or nine years, but to tell you that AB biotech and this AB Maori has been involved in the whiskey business, the scotch whiskey business for more than three decades, and actually we've got a majority share. So we're very in depth. So for you to get involved with us and for us to get involved with you, it really makes that nice link and it keeps that good Scottish heritage alive. Well,

Alastair (17:50): Oh, absolutely. I mean, I spent some time at Iron Distillery, for example, and looking at the east and what we were needing to do. And yeah, I mean the last figure I heard was 65% of all single MOT whiskeys in the world are made from ab Maury,

Rick (18:08): Hey, you said it, it's got to be loft. That's good.

Alastair (18:12): You can't go wrong. My sort of view was because I don't have 30 years experience in the whiskey industry, my view was stick to the very best grain, the very best yeast, the very best still. And that makes it, you are starting off with the very best. And what will then happen, our single MOT whiskey is uniquely American because of the New York. Our whiskey is uniquely Colorado because of the climate that imparts into whiskey. And then we're uniquely bolder because of we use local water to proof down into the bottle. And interestingly, our proof in Colorado, just to give an example of the weather, will actually go in the barrel and rise in proof because it's such a dry climate here. And we also have angel share of two to three times more the evaporation of those ethanol and water particles, two to three times more than you would get in Scotland because again, of the unique climate that both Colorado and Boulder has. But there are so many different interesting microclimates around America that it's pretty exciting to taste and try samples of whiskey from different locations.

Rick (19:30): They all can kind of provide their own little nuances and benefits. But hey, just so everybody's clear, Alistair's not being paid for any sort of endorsement here. So we thank you for the pub. So let me ask you this. So you've talked about this link with Colorado and Scotland. I mean, what really reminds you of home? Because I mean certainly you've got different air and you've got different water and that, and I've never been to Scotland, so I'm waiting for the invite. But if you have, is there something that really kind of draws you there or makes you feel really good or a place where you get a taste of Scotland? Even in Colorado,

Alastair (20:06): I was thinking about this and there isn't really, to be honest, America is so, so different from where I was brought up. I think the only link is no matter where you go in the world, once you get to know people, we're all the same. And I think that's what I found here in Colorado and in the us, wherever I travel to do whiskey tastings or wherever, once you get into conversations with people, whether they're from Kentucky or they're from Alaska, we're all the same. And I think that's why it is probably the most familiar part. There are so many different nuances though, from how I was brought up in Scotland or the UK or Europe than America. But I've been here now 12 years and I'm starting to understand, only starting to understand how Americans think it. Well, there's

Rick (20:54): A lot of common ground over a drink, whether it's a whiskey or maybe a beer or wine or even coffee, right?

Alastair (21:02): Absolutely. We get so many people into this distillery who the common theme is whiskey and the love of whiskey, the love of spirits, and that gets people talking. We're

Rick (21:14): Going to mix things up here on the fly during the program. I'm going to bring Greg Strauss back in here to ask a few of our next hot still questions. Greg, you ready? You think you can do this?

Gregg (21:23): Let's do it. Alright, we were just talking about Scotland and Alistair, I shared with you the first time my wife and I vacationed there, we were empty nesters, which was really just this past summer. Both kids were off in college, and I think I sent you a couple texts and let you know I was there. But one thing I failed to ask you is do you like scotch eggs?

Alastair (21:42): I love scotch eggs. Absolutely love them. And my wife has become a great cook of s Scottish food. So last night for example, we had steak pie, mashed potatoes and peas, but scotch eggs, she has really mastered that and she does it slightly untraditional where she actually doesn't deep fry the scotch eggs because you've got scotch eggs, you've got that meat that is rounded, and then a lot of people, even Rice Krispies or Cornflakes, she uses to put a coating on it and then she fries it in a shallow fryer and Oh, I love that. But the one other thing you need with scotch eggs is in Scotland is brown sauce, which is very different from red sauce. But no, I love scotch eggs.

Rick (22:32): Well, I'll tell you this, Greg and I, we've had some at a local place here called the Scottish Arms. They had great scotch eggs and for those who've never had it, it's essentially almost like hard boiled egg inside wrapped with sausage breaded, deep fried, and then you dip it in a spicy mustard like a goldens or even a little heavier than that. It's outstanding. Would you agree, Greg?

Gregg (22:55): Absolutely. Now I haven't actually tried it with the brown sauce. That's an interesting twist on that.

Alastair (23:00): Well, exactly as you said, Rick, it's like a little bit of a spicy sauce, but the real skill is to keep that egg yolk still running. So when you put your knife into it, it sort of opens up. Oh, it's delightful. Yeah, you've made me hungry.

Gregg (23:20): And for those of you listening in not knowing what a brown sauce is, the closest I would characterize it having been in Scotland would be like Heinz 57 here. Anyway, since we're on the food theme, I do have another question and then I do have one other question, kind of fun one just related to spirits of course, but okay, let's flip it around. So what's your favorite food here that you can't get in Scotland?

Alastair (23:41): I think without doubt, Mexican food. I think Colorado has such great Mexican cuisine, whereas Scotland literally had no Mexican cuisine. And I love the Mexican food here, and we eat it at home now. So I would say that's the one thing that I love here. And the other thing I love here is Americans do hamburgers so much better. And I think part of that is I think most of the hamburgers come from corn fed cattle, whereas in most of Europe it's all grass fed and corn fed cattle get this, it creates this thin marbled fat through the meat. But it is beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. Whereas grass fed, it's healthier for you, but it's not as nice.

Rick (24:31): I don't know about you guys. I'm getting hungry and thirsty now just talking to you guys. One last food observation. Having vacation in Scotland, it's the only country in the world where my wife and I had starters. IE appetizers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So much food. A breakfast starter. Oh yeah, really? Breakfast starters usually like locks or meat. Wow. Get into your breakfast. Just get the body going. All right, that's it. All right.

Alastair (24:56): You can't have too many. For most people, that's a special occasion because it's 2000 calories in one meal.

Rick (25:05): Alright, here's one last one. This is going off the cuff too. Favorite type of adhesive? Is it masking tape? Painter's tape, duct tape or scotch tape.

Alastair (25:18): Exactly. Well, sadly, scotch tape. I looked this up. Wild tape's got nothing to do with Scotland, but it just sounds like it. But yes, scotch tape.

Rick (25:29): I'm glad you looked it up. I never did, but I thought you would know, so I appreciate

Alastair (25:32): That. No, it, it's got nothing to do with Scotland, but they call it scotch tape, which is really interesting.

Rick (25:39): It is interesting. No idea why. So let's go business here just a little bit. So you've been in multiple industries, you've been in the military, you've lived in multiple countries. What's some maybe cool advice that you've gotten, whether it's from a distiller or maybe a senior military official? Is there some words of wisdom that could apply to anybody listening today?

Alastair (26:00): Again, I've been asked this question before and I struggle and you can come out with some phenomenal quotes that business leaders have said in the past. But I think for me, just I've, I've been working now 40 years of my life. I'm on my third career. And I think if people can, and that's always the thing, if I've got the opportunity to do something or move into an industry that they really enjoy. And I think because to enjoy what you're doing is, I think absolutely key. I mean, I enjoy the military, but then I came to the end of the 10 years and I wanted something different, a change, something interesting. So I think change is as good as a rest. I think people really, if they're passionate about something, and what we are lucky about is most of the craft distillers or the brewers are passionate about what they're doing. And that is seen in every conversation you have with the people.

Rick (26:56): That's fantastic. So, hey Alistair, we've enjoyed having you on the program today. One last question for before we let you go is maybe looking at the year ahead, right? We're already kind of fully moving into 2024 now. What do we expect from Vapor Distillery? What do we see from Boulder Spirits? What's on your, is there a trend or is there a new product or something that's on the horizon for you guys?

Alastair (27:21): Well, I think what most crafted stores are making single malt whiskeys are looking at for this year is to have what's called a standard recognition, the tags and trade bureau recognizing American single malt whiskey as a new category. And it'll be the first new whiskey category for 50, 60 years as an American single malt. And I think that's what we're looking for and hoping for, because I think more and more people are understanding what American single malt whiskey is and what it's not. And for me, that is incredibly exciting because I think once people, we get that standard of recognition, the single malt whiskey industry will absolutely take off. And that's exciting for us. As far as the distillery is concerned, we're always coming out with some new stuff. So we launched our 7-year-old single malt whiskey. We launched our, what we call 10 essentials, which is different cask finished whiskeys that have really proved incredibly popular. So come down to the distillery, taste our products, buy them online, do a whiskey tour, plug, plug, plug. And I think more and more people are going to start really forming an interest in American single mal whiskeys.

Rick (28:38): And they can just to check out a little bit more if they go to boulder spirits.com, right?

Alastair (28:42): Absolutely. And there's an info page in that. So if you want any questions answered, just do the Info Vapor Distillery or vapor@boulderspirits.com on the website and we will answer any questions you have.

Rick (28:58): Right? Same thing here too. So if you've got a question for Alistair you want to know more, we can help link you together, the oven line@abmaori.com. And Alistair, thanks so much for joining us. Love to having you on the program, thanks for your business, and we look forward to some paths. And now everybody, that's it. The switch is now off the oven, light is off. And we'll see you next time.

Intro/Outro (29:20): We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Oven Light. Until next time, when we discuss more about the wonderful world of baking technology trends and more, the switch is officially off. Goodbye for now. See you next time.