Tortillas Ain’t Flat

Rick (00:04):

It takes a bit of a blend of art and science to get baking just right and having extra eyes, ears, and hands can make a big difference along the way. That’s where A. B. Maury North America comes into play. We are the team behind industrial and artists and bakers that help optimize success. We’ll discuss more on this episode of The Oven Light. So let’s get going. Flip the switch. Welcome everybody to the Oven Light. We’re here on episode number six. Can you believe it? Lucky number six. Today we’ve got a great show for you. So let’s flip the switch. The oven light is now on. Today we’ve got a couple great guests from A. B. Maury and they both have longtime histories with the company and with Fleischmann’s yeast, actually in a couple different countries. So let’s get at it. And today we’re going to be talking tortillas with two folks.

(00:59):

First one is Darren Browlick. He’s a VP of sales for A. P. Maury. Been at the company almost 17 years. Prior to that, had spent some time as a sales manager with Denisco. This guy has a history of working within the baking industry, long time, and actually has a little bit of history as a Western regional sales manager for Fleischner’s East and a general manager for Burnsville covering Mexico. And that’s going to be a lead in for our other guests in a second. A couple other points about Darren. He can talk pretty much on any topic. He was a political science major at Cal State Fullerton. So go Titans if there’s any listeners out there. Lives in the Bay Area, but he’s a Dodgers fan. So certainly conflicted when it comes to Giants, Dodgers, I’m sure. So Darren Brolock is our guest. Darren, welcome aboard.

Darren (01:44):

Thank you, Rick. Good morning.

Rick (01:46):

So Oscar Carrion is our second guest. He is a development and technical service manager for A. B. Mauer. He’s been in that role for six years, but actually with the company since 2008, so about 14 years and had spent almost the first eight years or so of his career with A. B. Maury in Mexico. Prior to that, had been a production manager in baking in Mexico since 1998. I’m not even going to pronounce his university, but I can tell you this. He was an academic merit metal winner in the food engineering space. This guy is just an intriguing character. He loves the arts, an incredible chef. He loves music. Ironically, every year we put out kind of a top music hits for our sales team to have in their cars when they’re traveling around. And he’s always the first guy to chime in and be like, “I like your music or I don’t like it.

(02:36):

” He will be very blunt and we love that about Oscar. And I can tell you that I’ve actually almost broken bread with him. We actually made some pork, sausage and breakfast sausage together. So you’ll love Oscar. Oscar, hi, buddy.

Oscar (02:47):

Hi, Rick. Good morning. Thank you for that fantastic information and for having us here.

Rick (02:52):

And you know what? To make me better, how do you pronounce the university you went to? Because I’m going to butcher it and I’d rather you say it right.

Oscar (03:00):

Yeah, it’s Universitat, Autonoma Metropolitana.

Rick (03:03):

Awesome. So all right guys, let’s jump into it. So Darren, we’re going to turn our attention to you first. So rapid fire questions, it’s where we kind of hit you with a few quick items. So you walk into a bakery. What catches your eye? What are you buying first?

Darren (03:15):

There’s always so many choices. Absolutely would go for a bag ad, an authentic fermentation, clean bag ad.

Rick (03:22):

Okay. Well, there’s some purist out there who are like, “I just want the bread by itself.” And there’s others like, “Ooh, I want a little butter, maybe a touch of salt or some jam or something else.” You want it pure or do you add a little something to it?

Darren (03:33):

Oh, a little salted butter would be great along with a nice glass of pinot noir. There you

Rick (03:39):

Go. I mean, you’re kind of in the area, right? You’re in the Bay Area close to wine country, so I love that. Here’s the next one, flour or corn tortillas. And this is divisive, man.

Darren (03:48):

Yeah, that’s not an easy question because it kind of depends on where I’m at. If I’m in Mexico, I’m probably going to go authentic corn because it doesn’t get been any better. So I’m going to go corn because flour is always in the home. So corn is a little more unique.

Rick (04:03):

I’m with you to it. And for all those folks that are gluten intolerant of corn tortilla never hurts either. And then last one, last rapid fire. We talked a little bit about the Dodgers, but do you have a favorite player since you’ve been watching since you were a kid? Who’s your Dodger player that you just kind of put up on a pedestal?

Darren (04:20):

Kershaw.

Rick (04:21):

Really? Clayton Kershaw.

Darren (04:23):

Yeah. Contemporary. I just love watching him pitch. All

Rick (04:27):

Right, Oscar, we’re going to you now. You’re walking into your local bakery here in St. Louis. What do you like?

Oscar (04:32):

Well, I’m glad that you say locally in St. Louis because if I’m in the US, for sure I’m going to go to anything that has a multi-grain. I love multi-grain bread, so for sure I will go for that. But if I’m in a Mexican bakery, I’m going to choose the Mexican Melafaniers, which are made on pastry and they are just delicious.

Rick (04:53):

Okay. Is it a health thing or do you just like the taste profile versus maybe a traditional white bread or a sourdough?

Oscar (05:00):

Yeah, really it’s more about the sensation to have all the combination of the grains, the flavor, and the different textures on the same bread. I mean, that’s really awesome for me.

Rick (05:10):

We’re going to talk to the purist and the native of Mexico here. So are you going corn tortillas to match Darren or do you kind of opt to the US flour tortilla?

Oscar (05:19):

I mean, Mexican guy, corn tortillas, always, always. I mean, there are some dishes that they are fit better with the flour tortilla, but if I can choose, I’m always going to choose the corn tortilla.

Rick (05:32):

Okay. I like it. But I’ll tell you this. Oscar of course does a lot of innovation work in our baking hub here in the Cortex region. It’s an innovation hub here in St. Louis. And he’s created some really interesting tortillas and I’d like to see if he’s got a take on maybe one of his favorites. He’s done chocolate, he’s done black bean, he’s done pineapple, which I tell you what goes great with fish. Do you have a favorite of one of those new flavor styles that you’ve created to get away from your generic flour and corn tortillas?

Oscar (06:01):

Yeah. It’s interesting because I’m from Mexico, but I don’t like beans. However, the black bean tortilla that we develop here is so awesome, but I really love the texture and the flavor and how it combines with everything. So if I can choose between the new developments, I will say that the black bean tortilla will be one of my favorites.

Rick (06:21):

It’s good to hear. I’ll tell you this. Our family celebrates Taco Tuesday a lot and we regularly put black beans in our tortillas as well. All right, so here we go. I kind of teased everybody about music earlier and Oscar’s got very unique tastes. Oscar, if you are listening, who’s your favorite band or musician over time that you’re like, “I got to listen to this character.” Who is it?

Oscar (06:42):

I have a lot of idols, but mainly I like all these. So I try to hear a lot of all these music and I like the music that talking about new artists, maybe Michael Butler thinking about all groups. I like a lot the other group.

Rick (06:58):

Well, let me ask you, this is about Oldies, because I give them a hard time all the time. I’m like, “Okay,

Oscar (07:01):

So are

Rick (07:01):

We talking Lawrence Welk? Are we talking Bing Crosby?” Who are you digging?

Oscar (07:05):

Maybe Bing Crosby.

Rick (07:07):

Okay. All right. Going classic. All right guys, let’s get in. We’re going to talk tortillas now. So that’s enough of a little bit of a warmup. The guys are now engaged and you know these two characters now. So let’s talk tortillas. So Darren, kind of high level, what’s going on in the market? There’s been the long-term trend of growth. A lot of that’s followed demographics in the US and up north in Canada, and it’s now growing around six, 7% annually. Got some pickup during COVID with portability, people were doing takeout and things like that. What do you like or what do you see in the trends about tortillas now in the US?

Darren (07:38):

Yeah, it’s an excellent question. No doubt you’ve got the history spot on. Tortillas have outpaced bread growth for, gosh, 10 to 15 years, I think would be a fair term. We’re seeing what is really as part of the overall food trends over the last number of years of people looking what’s on trend is health and wellness, better for you options. We’ve seen some significant growth in the low carb area. Now low carb has been out for a number of years, but like many products and choices, it was dietary and it had initial surge and then it fell off. And part of that might’ve been also related to the quality wasn’t there. But then in the last five years, low carb has really, really come back strong and the quality of the products that are out there, including from maybe Maui are, in many cases, I think you can compare them to a traditional white flour tortilla.

(08:37):

So I think it’s really on the overall trends of clean label where it’s possible. Oscar mentioned his black bean formulation. That’s another on trend that we see in the food space is a lot of interest in plant-based foods. So that’s of course touched on tortillas as well as options, whether it’s chickpea or black bean or other offerings in that area. I think flavors is always intriguing, especially in this space because when you look at the history of the tortilla and Mexican food in particular, or other ethnic foods, tortillas fit so well in that, that flavors are for real vibrant culinary space with Mexican food. I think tortillas obviously fit that. And of course, wraps have been around for quite some time with some of the traditional tomatoes and tomato basil and spinach and other combinations like that. So that’s what’s great about the space is that it’s so versatile product.

(09:36):

So I think then the trends is what people are looking at as dietaries at the forefront and clean label better for you and just having a variety of options is what we’re seeing.

Rick (09:46):

So Darren’s talking about this space continues to be ripe for innovation. He mentioned low carb. So Oscar, I’m going to ask you about this one because the bread side of the business has gone low carb for a while, but don’t you think these products continue to get better and better? People want good taste. Certainly you want the stats and maybe the claims that go with it. But on the tortilla side specifically, taste has gotten better, right?

Oscar (10:10):

Yeah, you’re right. I mean, people is looking to have healthier food and something that is better for you. And they are open to try different options, but until last year’s products used to taste really bad. We didn’t have the right technology to mask some flavors or the right procedures to get some of the ingredients. Nowadays, we have improved so much that in some cases you can even notice the difference between a normal tortilla and one produced with low cab ingredients.

Rick (10:40):

That’s great. So let’s stay with Oscar on this one. So we talk about AB Maury, right? We make fleshman ease, right iconic leavening item for bakers everywhere. But in this space, we’re talking chemical leveners. So we’re talking baking powder. Why is it so important for tortillas to make sure you’re using the right kind of baking powder? Or you use others, aluminum, sodium, things like that for claims. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Oscar (11:02):

Well, the difference between bread and tortilla is basically none because the same ingredients that you are using to produce bread are going to be the same ingredients that you’re going to be using to produce tortilla, some small difference. But the main difference is that during the production of the bread, you’re going to be using some proofing thyme. And in order to create volume on the bread, you’re going to be using a natural leavening agent, which is the yeast, as you mentioned. On the tortilla side, sorry, we don’t have that long proofing time, so we have to use something fast to improve the quality of the product. So because of that reason, we use baking powder. Baking powder in tortilla is going to be really important because it’s going to give us or deliver to us the fluffiness on the tortilla, which is going to be very important.

(11:47):

It’s going to increase the wideeness of the product. And of course, by increasing those parameters, the tortilla is going to be softer in the mouth.

Rick (11:55):

Awesome. Thanks, Oscar. So we’re talking flatbreads, we’re talking tortilla, we’re talking non, that whole category, including pizza as well. But for Darren, bread really kind of fits all occasions of the day. Could be a slice of toast, could be a sandwich, it could be a croissant or something in the evening, or maybe a bread roll that goes with a steak dinner. Do you see kind of the same occasions for tortillas and maybe some of those that are growing in that space?

Darren (12:22):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it goes back to the versatility of tortillas. So we’ve seen an interest and we think it’s been out there for quite some time where you have tortillas in the breakfast space. We think there’s still room in that space beyond just the breakfast burrito. It’s really making it exciting by looking at different flavors for tortillas, combining them with other foods like fruits, making it a little more indulgent by adding in some toppings and whipped cream and making it fun for maybe a morning bite because obviously the tortilla has nice protein levels. It’s satiating. You’ve mentioned taco Tuesdays. We’ve seen out, especially in the West and major markets where the ubiquitous taco truck has gone through its own transformation over the food trucks. And you’ve seen the fusion of foods, Korean barbecue using tortillas of different types. Some of the ones we’ve flavored different sizes of tortillas.

(13:20):

So I think absolutely that’s the versatility of tortillas across different occasions and at different times in the day, there’s a place.

Rick (13:29):

So Oscar, so here’s your next question. We’re going to get a little more technical. So what are some of the products that you could tell our listeners about that maybe you’re working on without giving away too much, but what’s important for them to know that AB Maori is working on from a technical standpoint, creating new solutions that answer either a customer’s need or maybe a consumer trend?

Oscar (13:50):

Yeah. Well, something important to mention is that we at AB Maori really like to be partnership with our customers. So we are always trying to help them. In order to do that, we don’t only deliver an ingredient to them and let them try them by themselves. So we try to understand how they are producing the tortillas, the challenge that they have on the bakery, they issue some quality or the improvements that they want to do to the final product, and then is when we suggest the ingredient that can help in the process. So we have ingredients for everything. So we have some ingredients that can be used as a reducing agent. We have a huge line or portfolio of baking powders. We have ESL system. We have enzymes that are going to help on the mixing time on improving the mixing and also reducing the mixing time.

(14:41):

And just recently we launched three new products. These are complete mix that are used to follow the tendencies on the market. So the first one that I would like to mention is a product that is the item is a 17.98 and it’s called low cartotia mix. This mix is a full batch pack. So that means that you just have to add your flour, your fat and your water and mix with this batch pack and you’re going to have a very nice tortilla, which is going to be similar, is not better than the liters on the market. Then we have the 1793, which is going to be the total tortilla mix. The 1794 is going to be the same ingredient, but this one is going to be considered clean label, although there is no specification on what can be considered clean label. The ingredients used in this product are going to be or matching some of the ingredients or all of the ingredients that some companies are looking as a clean label.

(15:37):

And the last one is the 1798, which is a low carb to GMix. So that was talking on the tendency that low carb is something that is growing up a lot lately. So this one also has the advantage that you just have to add some few ingredients and your mixer combined with this one. The reology of your dough is going to be very similar to your normal dough. So that means that it’s going to be able to work on almost every line that you have on your bakery.

Rick (16:05):

That’s awesome, Oscar. So you’re talking a little bit of an all- in-one mix, if I heard you right, also clean label, also low carb. So let’s get back to the … We haven’t even mentioned the product line here is supremo, and Darren likes to beat me up on making sure you say it correctly. Tell

Oscar (16:21):

Me a

Rick (16:21):

Little bit about this product line. You’ve been a part of it for a long time. I believe we launched in 2013 as part of our presentation in Las Vegas. So the product line has been around for almost 10 years now.

Darren (16:32):

Yeah, it is supremo. And we’ve always had a core portfolio of ingredients that fit well in the tortilla space. What’s important to know that things that are really common to bakers, baking powders, propionates, acids that are common for the formulation of tortilla, there’s a tremendous amount of science. I could step back a little bit to the comment about baking powders, for example, very similar to yeast. The baker, the producer’s looking for consistency. It’s all about consistency. And there’s a lot of technology that AB Maury has and understanding about the components that make up a system like a baking powder because we use phosphates in the production of yeast and obviously for chemical levening systems like our baking powders. So the supremo was a next step using, and depending on the product, some patented technology, but it’s really that expertise to bring that consistency that is just required in a tortilla, not like any other yeast raised product.

(17:35):

And that’s really key. And then when you see supremo line today, it’s really reflective of the innovation and large credit goes to our team and the baking hub, the innovation that have expertise in the core areas of preservation, enzyme technology, as well as chemical levying, those core areas for tortillas and the work that Oscar’s done, which has been tremendous over the last four or five years, especially with really addressing on trend that consumers are demanding. And then our customers, our end use market customers that are looking to have different offerings. And that’s the versatility of the total tortilla mix or the clean label version or the low carb is to offer clients that maybe don’t have that formulation expertise that Oscar has and the ability to scale properly or address labor issues, the supremo line of ingredients in our portfolio offers choices. So we can go a total mix.

(18:35):

For that ease, we have components for different areas of preservation, for example, an ESL or a combination therein. So we can really address a customer’s particular needs or desire in formulation.

Rick (18:48):

So we’ve talked a lot about tortillas and trends. Anything new on the horizon from a style or other just interesting things that are popping up?

Oscar (18:57):

Well, yeah, of course you mentioned flatbread. And if you think in tortillas, tortilla is considered also a flatbread. So a good started point is that almost all the technology that we use for tortilla can be used also for the flatbreads. So new developments in the flatbreads is more trying to keep the softness of the product for longer time because the processing of the flatbreads is a very strong process. The baking time is very short and with very high temperatures. So most of the people is trying to conserve or keep the shelf life of the product for longer time. So a lot of the tendencies on that field is to try to keep the softness for longer.

Rick (19:41):

I think that’s a real good point, Oscar, because certainly you don’t want to bite into a brick, right? All right, guys. Well, let’s do our last segment here. We’re going to look in the crystal ball here. Darren, any kind of parting shots that you really want our listeners out there to know about the industry or why that you love tortillas or the Supremo brand? Is there anything a last little sign off that you want to pass along?

Darren (20:04):

I think the insight that’s been evident in the work that we’ve done at Amy Mallory and responding to our clients is the vast majority of consumption of tortillas still fits in the traditional space of tortillas, so a white flour tortilla. Yes, we’ve seen growth and specific to that with maybe dietary trends like low carb, keto, paleo, but still is that I think that what we’ve tried to do as a company is innovate in a way that you can offer where it’s appropriate for your business in these niche categories outside that 85%, whether it is a gluten-free, if you’re set up to do that or organic, if that’s the direction you want to take, clean label, getting into the more on trend if we’re looking at pulse-based tortilla formulations or flavors that make it a little more vibrant. Again, back to that idea of making the tortilla just as much as a feature of the filling, I think those are really the considerations that our clients have and that we want to make available those options.

Rick (21:14):

Well, I have to make an invitation out there. So if you’re a baker listening in or you’re trying to make some tortillas or something’s just not right, come visit our Frank Sinatra of the organization. That’s Oscar. Come to St. Louis, visit our baking hub. Oscar, any kind of parting shots or anything you really just want to get off the chest for our listeners?

Oscar (21:32):

As I mentioned before, we at David Mari are here to help our customers to be proactive with them. So I’m always open to help anybody. So if you have any question, any doubt you think that we can help you, just feel free to contact us and for sure we will have any solution

Rick (21:50):

For you. Awesome. And as we’ve said in previous episodes, we have a very talented team here at AB Maori and there’s some other baking professionals that are part of Oscar and the BakingHub team, and we’re thrilled they’re here. So I want to say thanks to both Darren Brolik and Oscar Karap for joining us today. I think we’ve had a great episode. Looking ahead on the schedule, we’re going to be talking emulsifiers with Nicole Reese. Then we’ll be getting into mold inhibition. We’ll talk a little bit of fun about Fleishman’s Yeast. And then as we get into the summer months, we’re going to start teasing IBIE. It’s the biggest show in the baking industry in North America. It happens only every three years. We haven’t been to Vegas since September of 2019. So we’re talking September 18th to 21st coming up, and it’s going to be exciting.

(22:34):

And A. B. Maury’s got big plans that if you’re going to be on the show floor, you don’t want to miss us. Oscar and Darren will be two of our key leads that are going to be around. So come by and meet them face-to-face here in a few months. The other thing is we don’t get enough emails from our listeners out there. And I know we’ve got listeners, we’ve got them overseas. So I have to at least give a little nod and a tip of the cap. For whatever reason, we’ve got a little bit of a following in Helsinki Finland. I don’t know why, but we want to at least say hello to them. If you’ve got a question for our team, send us an email at theovenlight@abmawory.com. And I’ll tell you what, I’m going to juice the offer a little bit more. Send us an email if you’ve got a question.

(23:14):

I’m going to send you an autograph photo from Oscar. How about that? We’ve never done it before, and we’ll send you some AB Mary swag. So for now, that’s enough. For episode number six, thanks for joining us. The oven light is off, the switch is off, and we’ll see you next time. Thanks again.

(23:32):

We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of The Oven Light. Until next time when we discuss more about the wonderful world of baking technology, trends, and more, the switch is officially off. Goodbye for now. See you next time.